tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13299345.post3848856489790900739..comments2023-07-09T15:59:59.241+08:00Comments on solitude.in.music: An Abhorrent Systemsolitudexhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12740659492577352273noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13299345.post-55137596094457256532007-08-02T06:14:00.000+08:002007-08-02T06:14:00.000+08:00No, Jeff, I live in Milan, Italy… Yes, some 10 hou...No, Jeff, I live in Milan, Italy…<BR/> <BR/>Yes, some 10 hours-drive from Wagner’s temple, which I was able to visit just in that virtual life that Internet is!<BR/><BR/>I have almost given up the idea – the dream – to be once in that temple (I don’t even know how to have any chance of getting tickets for). So I thank god that radio first and web recently could let me – and millions like me and you – listen live to the Festspiele’s performances.<BR/><BR/>If you click on my Wagner2013 blog, you’ll find a rather crushing feedback on last night’s GD, that has brought to my ears the worst Thielemann ever.dalandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10856706986427410135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13299345.post-28858974766656181122007-08-02T00:19:00.000+08:002007-08-02T00:19:00.000+08:00Daland, good things are meant to be shared! Just t...Daland, good things are meant to be shared! Just thought that if anyone would bother to read my posts on Wagner, I would be kind enough to point them to a more informative place!<BR/><BR/>And so I see, the misuse of Wagner's operas. I've heard much of it, by the people in the Wagner family. I have read much about it, but to talk about them here would take up uncountable posts! Maybe if there's a chance for me to visit Bayreuth (you reside in Bayreuth, don't you?) or even go for the Bayreuth Festspiele (what a thought, how incredibly far that dream is!), we can meet up to discuss about this. Let me rephrase it, we can meet up so that you can teach me more about Wagner! <BR/><BR/>Now, it's time to go back to indulge in this grand orgiastic feast in the finale of this grand opera!solitudexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12740659492577352273noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13299345.post-7673212371160631602007-08-01T21:23:00.000+08:002007-08-01T21:23:00.000+08:00Jeff, I’m moved by your comments to my post! I don...Jeff, I’m moved by your comments to my post! I don’t deserve either the advertising you made me on your blog.<BR/><BR/>To the “pills” issue and Wagner: with “wrong circumstances” I referred precisely to the perverse use that was made of Wagner by the “Winifred-gang”, that convinced people in the millions to take Wagner just as a dope. And that was really “scientific” in the make!<BR/><BR/>As much scientific as are today’s theories on Wagner’s early-nazist political aims in writing his dramas: some of them spring from genuine disgust for that misuse that was made of Wagner’s works, many are really influenced by Wagner’s own biography, writings and sayings… while “in the only repository that artistically counts” (the actual scores released for print) there is absolutely nothing to be reproached to Wagner on the racist and anti-semitic issue, to the contrary... <BR/><BR/>Now, back to the Grüne Hügel, the Norns are about to sing their memories, in a musical atmosphere as pealing as requiring 7 flats in the key signature of the opening (Cflat!)dalandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10856706986427410135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13299345.post-30373742284809578352007-08-01T19:57:00.000+08:002007-08-01T19:57:00.000+08:00I'm overwhelmed by your explanation, Daland. Such ...I'm overwhelmed by your explanation, Daland. Such insightful statements which send the rusty gears in my mind into motion. <BR/><BR/>Yes, I do see the coherence of it all. And I'm surprised that you have remarked that 90% of listeners approach Wagner without, uhm, using their brains. I first approached it that way and I couldn't get as much out of it as compared to a Mozart opera! Coincidentally, it was that experience which sent me straight into the scores, commentaries and guides to find out more about it(instead of merely kicking Wagner aside as an incompetent opera composer). I hadn't regretted it since then, and have understood so much more about him. <BR/><BR/>Yes, Daland, I do see where such a systematic way of analysing Wagner can take us, with the lessons from near history. But I don't think such events happened because they were influenced by Wagner's philosophies, more probably because their moralities were flawed right from the start!<BR/><BR/>In my personal spiritual walk, I've gotten much closer to God, partly because of the presence of such ideas in this artistic field which I'm deeply interested in. I guess right inside, I do know I need the strongest anchor before sailing out into the deep seas.<BR/><BR/>You've lost me there with the pills question, Daland! What do you mean by taking the pills in the wrong circumstances? Is there a wrong circumstance in approaching or listening to Wagner? <BR/><BR/>Thanks for sharing so much, Daland! Truly appreciate it!solitudexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12740659492577352273noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13299345.post-25491029741275588332007-08-01T17:12:00.000+08:002007-08-01T17:12:00.000+08:00Errata corrige to the previous comment: 20th centu...Errata corrige to the previous comment: 20th century was meant, not certainly 19th !!!dalandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10856706986427410135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13299345.post-40392655053877377302007-08-01T15:42:00.000+08:002007-08-01T15:42:00.000+08:00Jeff, your sentence “I find that drawing out those...Jeff, <BR/>your sentence “I find that drawing out those senses and spirit is an active than passive action as well” perhaps best describes the ambiguity that is at the core of this whole matter! Yes, because to be “passive”, you just have to “turn on the receiver that is within yourself”, while any “active” approach requires a previous, positive investigative effort! Can we blend these two apparently antipodic sides? To me, yes, in the only way that is given to a human being: first, investigate – then, enjoy!<BR/><BR/>Only after having explored – perhaps with hand lens – its fresco paintings and its mosaic and chisel works, you can appreciate in its magnificient whole a gothic – or baroque, romanesque – cathedral (or a mosque, by the way)! No doubt either that your spirit can feel lifted just entering such a place and closing your eyes… <BR/> <BR/>As to the attitude required to enjoy Wagner, A.C.Douglas explains the concept (better than I would do) in Part I of his: Wagner's Ring: A Guide For The Willing But Perplexed. <BR/> <BR/>Quote from his writing:<BR/>"Wagner's melodic and harmonic metamorphoses, permutations, and contrapuntal symphonic development of these leitmotifs are at the heart of music-drama, the Ring most especially, and one would imagine that an intimate knowledge of all the Ring leitmotifs (with their permutations and metamorphoses they number over a hundred) would be prerequisite for one's understanding of the tetralogy.<BR/>You'll be relieved to learn, I'm certain, that such is not the case. One's understanding of and response to the Ring would be immeasurably deepened by such intimate knowledge most certainly, but some experts' notions to the contrary notwithstanding, Wagner created his music-dramas to speak directly to the emotions of a theater audience, none of whom he counted on to be trained musicians or musicologists. The leitmotifs will speak to you and work their magic whether you're aware of their individual presences or not, so you may put your mind at ease concerning them."<BR/><BR/>ACD’s position, in few words: “Wagner is different from all traditional opera composers, and the best way to enjoy his dramas requires “knowledge”, but you can enjoy them “without knowledge” as well”.<BR/><BR/>Yes, a very very pragmatic position, reflecting the way 90% of the folks do approach Wagner. It’s what I called the “passive” attitude… the one that will take you no less than to exasperation during Walküre act II, scene II (Wotan’s memory to Brünnhilde)!!! (A piece that – if properly grasped - is one of the most extraordinary phenomenon of musikdrama). <BR/><BR/>On the other side, the “scientific” approach to Wagner can also lead to misuse (soft term) of his artistic opuses (in the hands of one Winifred or the like) as we have witnessed in the first half of 19th century!<BR/><BR/>So, we are still in front of my “pills” question! If the pill is the right one for you (who decides? your General Practitioner?) you can safely take it, without knowing its chemical receipt… But in turn, knowing the receipt doesn’t spare you, if you take that pill in the wrong circumstances!dalandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10856706986427410135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13299345.post-49783009444200123152007-08-01T13:05:00.000+08:002007-08-01T13:05:00.000+08:00Beautiful questions, Daland!I wasn't really clear ...Beautiful questions, Daland!<BR/><BR/>I wasn't really clear on my stand in my post above. This academic system, focuses totally on scientific and systematic way to learn and inquire in orderto acquire more knowledge. Despite my disagreement at this system, I do not stand at the other extreme of this spectrum. I do see the merits of this systematic mode of independent learning and inquiry, but at the same time, I believe one needs to be able to just hold back the logical mind a little and let our God-given senses and spirit to come forth.<BR/><BR/>Yes, our problem. Where do we put the borders between spirit and matter, form and contents, and if we extend to a bigger sphere to include polarities such as light and darkness, hate and love, lightness and weight? Are we truly able to make a distinction between all the different polarities, and each side of a polarity itself? There're so many grey areas! But that's how the scientific way attempts to study everything, to isolate them, to make sense of them, to understand them, to gain knowledge and then to gain satisfaction from that knowledge. And in fact, most of them, even both sides of a certain polarity co-exist mutually to create a desired effect.<BR/><BR/>As for aesthetics, maybe those terms like 'describe, study and learn' aren't the proper terms for it. But nonetheless, in this institution, such a systematic way of acquiring knowledge is also imposed on the philosophy field, which includes aesthetics. I can't exactly put my finger on it, but it involves more feelings and thoughts, and I dare say that it's a very spiritual journey, instead of a scientifc and systematic one.<BR/><BR/>Take your example for instance. The <I>Waltz of the Flowers</I> from Tchaikovsky's <I>Nutcracker</I>. The first time I heard it a couple of years back, my first reaction was "such beauty! This is the first (and probably the only) waltz I've listened to with such a heart-rending weeping section by the basses!" Such emotions just didn't fit into a waltz, but just in this particular movement, this emotion was juxtaposed in the most coherent manner with the charm and elegance of the waltz, resulting in such an exclamation on my part. That's part of <I>my</I> learning process here and it cannot be questioned in a scientific way as it is an individual's sensory experience. I would certainly love to hear another's experience of it, but it wouldn't be right for me to question their sensory experience of it.<BR/><BR/>Of course, Wagner would be different in some ways, but one can't swing to the other extreme either. I have to agree that it would be difficult to appreciate the links between various themes if one doesn't dissect them and compare them scrupulously and systematically. But on the other hand, how can one be able to fully appreciate the beauty of the prelude to Act III of <I>Die Walküre</I> or the prelude to <I>Tristan und Isolde</I>? <I>Especially the latter!</I> The tension snowballs and the orchestration thickens. Enjoying them is a completely sensory and spiritual experience! Breaking them up into individual themes, instrumentation, harmonies or more just serves to spoil the entire picture. <BR/><BR/>That's the thing, Daland, when one analyses music in such a scientific and systematic way, the ending product or conclusion upon breaking everything up can easily be used for comparison. One can say that Composer A's music is more meaningful, coherent, well-orchestrated than Composer B's, does that mean that Composer B doesn't deserve to be performed? If that's how music is studied, then all 'inferior' works shouldn't be performed or played. What an awful loss for everyone if that happens in the artistic world!<BR/><BR/>I would believe in the artistic field, the senses and spirit comes first before the mind, though both are to co-exist to fully appreciate a piece of music. Both are not mutually exclusive. And I don't think I share your use of opposing passive and active terms. Both I believe are active parts on our side. I find that drawing out those senses and spirit is an active than passive action as well. A total passive state would mean to me closing up to music, expecting some miracle in music to hit them. (I've met pathetic people like that!) How about you, Daland?<BR/><BR/>And for your last question, why not put it this way, for Wagner alone, after knowing the effects of this opium-based drug, I all the more desire to be intoxicated... I would believe that it's the same for Wagnerites like us, isn't it, Daland?solitudexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12740659492577352273noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13299345.post-3782951456914252062007-07-31T23:35:00.000+08:002007-07-31T23:35:00.000+08:00Intriguing enough, Jeff!Our problem is: where to p...Intriguing enough, Jeff!<BR/><BR/>Our problem is: where to put the border (between spirit and matter, form and contents, “finesse et gèometrie”).<BR/><BR/>Aesthetics: is it something we can describe, study, learn? And if so, how?<BR/><BR/>Question-1: do you need any particular study and “dissection-of-the-piece” to enjoy the “flower’s waltz” from Ciajkovski’s Nutcracker? Hopefully not…<BR/><BR/>Question-2: can you fully enjoy Brünnhilde’s “Justification” without knowing (and just the study can give you such a knowledge) that this theme comes directly from Wotan’s “Covenant” and has tremendous psychological links and dependencies on that? Hardly…<BR/><BR/>And yet: is Ciajkovski’s piece artistically poorer than Wagner’s?<BR/><BR/>More: which one is your approach? Passive, leaving the (artistic) phenomenon to hit your sensibility and reacting accordingly? Or active, using your brain to control – and so to fully enjoy – that phenomenon? <BR/><BR/>Contra-contra question (Wagner-addiction): knowing precisely the chemical receipt of an opium-based drug, does this prevent you form falling intoxicated when taking it?dalandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10856706986427410135noreply@blogger.com